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Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 11:07 PM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
JME
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RadioRaheem wrote:
JME wrote:
its not really about the money either down london its still a territory thing , its just the same as some ned punting coke or weed up here , except the gangsters down london earn more money and they are not running about in a tracksuit with a leg off a chair , they are running about in x5's , the best of clothes and either a gun or knife down theyre trousers. but what you said about mc's chatting grease is alot of shit , it does happen , watch the thing about meridian bloodline n17 on youtube , altho shootings may not happen 24/7 it still happens, if you listen to grime music and you know a bit about it then you know who chats shit and who actually does what they say.


I grew up in N17 and i remember when that meridian shooting happend, the guy that done it wasnt even from Tottenham and he wasnt known as an mc, he was only known for killing some guy and never getting caught for it before. alot of grime mcs do talk shit about guns its not a genre thats to be taken seriously, some mcs are real but others only know people who do have guns and fire off shots but they actually dont themselves... think about it, if they really did shoot cunts at least one of them would have caught a bullet now theyre doing gigs and people know where they are at what time. Theres only one grime mc in prison right now for shooting someone to death and it wasnt even him that done it.
[Edited by RadioRaheem on 07 May 10 12:08 AM]


solo 4 5 was inside aswell for shooting someone on the chest
dno what crazy t's in for.

i do understand what your saying about not all mcs are into it but theres a selected few.

why are we even talking about london gangs?

who gives a fuck?
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 08:22 PM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
fluffy
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when the big dogs roll in,
you don't want see when gunshot start beat
it will be like when dog'a eat tripe
 
Miscellaneous: Appreciation thread
  07 May 10 02:29 PM | Edit Reply | RE: Appreciation thread
Meg
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MACB wrote:
saughton skatepark.


ur a gayboy
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 01:01 PM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
aesop
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papa inna suit an moma inna frockkkk
 
Miscellaneous: Appreciation thread
  07 May 10 12:59 PM | Edit Reply | RE: Appreciation thread
MACB
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saughton skatepark.
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 12:04 PM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
KingGhidra
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwmUOJR-GwA

Case closed.

Funeral started everybody inna black.
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 05:17 AM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
Gunghoe
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Fair enough, there's no point in us jsut going over and over it.

I still disagree with you, but we've both made our arguments, so I'll leave it at that.

Good to get a proper debate about something on here again. People are going to roll their eyes, but at least we're actually posting worthwhile points for a change.

I'm going to get some sleep, let's just hope we don't wake up to a Tory government.
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 04:53 AM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
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I don't have to conclusively prove the opposite to what you've stated to cast your conclusions and reasoning process into reasonable doubt.

If we both agree that Paris isn't relevent then you've indirectly agreed with my argument that Chicago is just as incomparable, which is why I have twice rehashed how daft using Paris was. How does that not make sense to you?

I've refuted the things you've brought up when put under pressure about your point. i.e. the validity of Chicago, London's reputation for crime, the varying role of guns in acts of crime etc etc. But my point in doing so was to prove that they don't provide much of a shelter for the original question and we've just bounded down off separate tangents.

I don't think that the difference between reporting of youth crime is as wide a gap as you've made out compared with the percentages of incidents, and I don't see how any of the things you've latterly brought to prove it bear tangible relevence on that question or hold that much water in regards to national media coverage except for the odd case here and there.

As for the reason of the contrary, I think the legality and readily avaliable nature of firearms should be an absolutely bonzer reason why there are more uses of guns in America? Special Branch brought this up in the first post contrary to yours. Recovering ground.

Anyway, you're correct a shot person is a shot person, but I was getting at the amount of gun crime in general, not fatal shootings to attack this statement "Not that there isn't any gun crime in London, but you're probably more likely to be hit by lightening walking the mean streets of the UK capital than shot dead..." which lends itself to the implication that the only type of gun crime worth discussing is being "shot dead" And then the second time I emphasised it would be to counter this statement "I don't see why there'd be lots of gun crime but hardly any firearm related homicides." Yet again rehashing something that's already been posed.

My point about London's reputation was that you used it as a direct reference to the discrepancy between perceived attitudes/attention to iolent crime in the two cities. You can't make a comparison without acknowledging both sides, which should have been obvious from my last post if you read between the lines.


Anyway, I'm getting tired of making the same points. It's been pleasurable though.
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 04:20 AM | Edit Reply | Dis-appreciation thread
Gunghoe
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I am basing my argument on numbers which aren't entirely reliable, but at least I'm basing my argument on some numbers. Where are yours? It's hypocritical to attack me for not providing water-tight statistics, while you sit there with absolutely none at all.



As for the point about the relative size of Chicago compared to London, you're right; Chicagoland is far bigger than Chicago itself. But even with that fact, the number of fatal shootings in Chicago is still roughly 30 times that of London, with London being the larger city. How much larger is, admittedly, a point you can debate, but the fact remains; there are far, far more shootings in Chicago. That's what this debate has become is about- gun related homicide, not the size of Chicago.



I brought up London's reputation, not Glasgow's. I am not backpeddling, I'm simply stating a fact. I didn't bring up Manchester's reputations either. I suppose that throws the whole debate into disarray aswell? This is what I'm talking about when I say "arguing for the sake of it". Why are you having a go at me for not bringing up Glasgow's reputation? What does it have to do with anything?



You don't need to elaborate on the fact that gun crime and homicide involving firearms are not the same thing, I understand that. What you do need to elaborate on is how it relates to my comparison between London and Chicago, or in any way contradicts my contention that there aren't actually that many homicides involving firearms in London.

Because although they're not the same thing, the proportions on either side of the Atlantic should be (unless you have a reason to contrary) the same. Let's say for every 1 fatal shooting there are 10 crimes invovlng guns that do not result in a fatality. That ratio shouldn't really change between London and Chicago. Therefore, the higher rate of homicides involving a firearm in Chicago would indictate a higher rate of gun crime in general in Chicago. So unless your pedantry on this issue actually relates to my point about there not being that many homicides involving firearms in London, I can't see where you're going with this...



We seem to agree that people in the UK don't really know much about crime in Paris, which was my original reason for not using it as a comparison. What point are you making about this? I don't understand why you're bringing it up.



As for the Home Office figures, I know that these government bodies are known to "massage" figures in order to make crime rates seem lower. However, the homicide rate is not a figure that is easily changed, because a corpse won't disappear. If someone has been shot dead, they've been shot dead, you can't change that be "reclasifying" the crime, which is what often goes on.

For example, if you get attacked and badly injured, you have been the victim of, for example, either Attempted Murder or GBH. This is Serious Violent Crime. However, say the police never catch anyone for the attack and you never go to court, the nature of the offence can easily be written up simply as "Assault", which would be Non-serious Violent Crime. Making the Serious Violent Crime figures appear lower than they actually are.

However, if you have been shot in the head and you die, it's murder, pure and simple. The Home Office figures, in this case atleast, are reliable; the police are unable to wrongly-classify murders deliberately, because the person is either alive or dead.



And if you disagree with me that's fine, deabte is what this place is for. However, if you don't provide any evidence to support your own arguments, you can't just say "I disagree" and expect to be taken seriously.
[Edited by Gunghoe on 07 May 10 04:23 AM]
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 03:25 AM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
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I can and have disputed the point you're trying to achieve. If you're admittedly basing your whole argument on the provision of numbers which you yourself don't think to be entirely comprehensive then I don't see what you've got to back it up. There are set boundaries to these suburbs. Furthermore the differnce of a few million in London's case from approx 8 million to 12 million isn't really the same as an increase of almost 4 fold to the population of the Chiacago urban area serving to prove as has already been mentioned that the two are totally incomparable, on any basis other than your worthless musings about American cultural exports, especially when relating to a discussion that was originally restricted by YOU to differences in crime/reportage in the U.K. I've been to London more times in the last 2 years than you've had hot dinners, doesn't make my logic any stronger.

"This was never a debate about Glasgow's reputation."

You're the one who brought up cities reported reputations to prove your point about perceived crime statistics, don't backpeddle.


I don't think I should really need to elaborate upon the fairly obvious point that a gun being used in a crime doesn't mean it was shot. Are you seriously trying to say that? Because putting the onus on me to explain the discrepancy between the two would suggest you can't grasp the fact that guns can/are used for the purposes of intimidation and threat.

My point on Paris was pretty clearly to directly refute "
I could have used Paris, for example, but I don't think people have many pre-conceptions about whether or not Paris is violent." By pointing out the pretty blunt fact that in Scotland it's no surprise that Paris doesn't carry a similarly violent reputation as London. It's not as relevent to us, it's in a different country with drastically less cultural export than the U.S. In the same way the day to day reportage of crime in London will not be reported in the domestic media in France.

As for the conjecture thing, just because you qualified it with "I believe" doesn't make it anything but hot air.

I am not trying to prove that London has a "high" rate of firearm related homicides, I'm saying that I don't think you're speculations have been justified and I support that fact. Dodging the bullet and asking me to relaborate the points I have already made succintly enough while throwing a challenge towards me doesn't refute my statements.

The only figures you have quoted are from the home office, which I hope you're not naive enough to think accurately represent the actual amount of crime commited in the streets of this country.

And don't try and brush this off with another "arguing for the sake of it" attempt, I simply disagree with what the examples you stated if that's so hard to believe.
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 02:45 AM | Edit Reply | Dis-appreciation thread
Gunghoe
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Sleep;

"Fatal shootings isn't equal to gun crime though is it?"

No it's not the same, but unless people in London can't shoot straight, I don't see why there'd be lots of gun crime but hardly any firearm related homicides. Care to explain that one?

"We were initially after all talking about homicide, not simply shootings."

We were talking about homicide, until someone said the reason for the disproportionate rate of reporting in London was due to the fact that the media prefer to report gun crime. So this became a dicussion about gun crime, not simply homicide in general. Although you'll find that London does have a low homicide rate, lower than Glasgow.

As for your point about Paris... what is your point about Paris?


"The population of Chicago isn’t 3.5 million. At all. Last years census puts it at less than three million on a technical level. However talking about the On paper urban area, and realistically what people mean when they talk about crime reputation/culture etc etc in “Chicago” is closer to 8/9 million. Your shooting figures will obviously be based on the former, but you forget to factor in the way American cities tend to be based. A very low population density central business district and a suburban sprawl for miles. Even bearing in mind the tendency for Ghettos to be inner city, most of the population of the “Chicago area” and presumably a fair chunk of any crime will occur outwith this area for which you quote figures."

I have actually been to Chicago, this year, and I am aware that the population of "Chicagoland" is far higher than the population of the city itself. However, the same is true for London, with a metro area population of 12-23 million people. I didn't include the figure for the greater Chicago area because I didn't include the figure for the greater London area. If you start to include the suburbs it becomes extremely complex as there are no set boundaries, making the figures unreliable. But none of this changes the undisputable fact that London has a low gun crime rate compared to Chicago. You can be pedantic and pick me up on the fact that my figures are never going to be entirely comprehensive, but you can't actaully dispute the point I'm making, so what are you trying to achieve?

"The assumption that the reputation that “London is riddled with black kids shooting each other” is imported from America is total conjecture."

Yes, it is conjecture, hence my use of the phrase "I believe".

"neglected to mention that rightly enough Glasgow has a pretty fearsome reputation, not only in Scotland but in the U.K. for violent crime."

This was never a debate about Glasgow's reputation. It was about the media's coverage of London. That is why I have been mainly talking, funnily enough, about London.

Like I said, you seem to be simply arguing with me for the sake of it.

Do you have any evidence that London does have a high rate of firearm related homicides? No.
[Edited by Gunghoe on 07 May 10 02:50 AM]
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 02:03 AM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
Sleep
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Tottenham is zone 3.
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 01:34 AM | Edit Reply | RE: Dis-appreciation thread
Uxbridge
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RadioRaheem wrote:
JME wrote:
its not really about the money either down london its still a territory thing , its just the same as some ned punting coke or weed up here , except the gangsters down london earn more money and they are not running about in a tracksuit with a leg off a chair , they are running about in x5's , the best of clothes and either a gun or knife down theyre trousers. but what you said about mc's chatting grease is alot of shit , it does happen , watch the thing about meridian bloodline n17 on youtube , altho shootings may not happen 24/7 it still happens, if you listen to grime music and you know a bit about it then you know who chats shit and who actually does what they say.


I grew up in N17 and i remember when that meridian shooting happend, the guy that done it wasnt even from Tottenham and he wasnt known as an mc, he was only known for killing some guy and never getting caught for it before. alot of grime mcs do talk shit about guns its not a genre thats to be taken seriously, some mcs are real but others only know people who do have guns and fire off shots but they actually dont themselves... think about it, if they really did shoot cunts at least one of them would have caught a bullet now theyre doing gigs and people know where they are at what time. Theres only one grime mc in prison right now for shooting someone to death and it wasnt even him that done it.
[Edited by RadioRaheem on 07 May 10 12:08 AM]


anything outside zone 3 is bumpkin bruv so suk ur dad u neek
 
Miscellaneous: Dis-appreciation thread
  07 May 10 12:06 AM | Edit Reply | Dis-appreciation thread
RadioRaheem
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JME wrote:
its not really about the money either down london its still a territory thing , its just the same as some ned punting coke or weed up here , except the gangsters down london earn more money and they are not running about in a tracksuit with a leg off a chair , they are running about in x5's , the best of clothes and either a gun or knife down theyre trousers. but what you said about mc's chatting grease is alot of shit , it does happen , watch the thing about meridian bloodline n17 on youtube , altho shootings may not happen 24/7 it still happens, if you listen to grime music and you know a bit about it then you know who chats shit and who actually does what they say.


I grew up in N17 and i remember when that meridian shooting happend, the guy that done it wasnt even from Tottenham and he wasnt known as an mc, he was only known for killing some guy and never getting caught for it before. alot of grime mcs do talk shit about guns its not a genre thats to be taken seriously, some mcs are real but others only know people who do have guns and fire off shots but they actually dont themselves... think about it, if they really did shoot cunts at least one of them would have caught a bullet now theyre doing gigs and people know where they are at what time. Theres only one grime mc in prison right now for shooting someone to death and it wasnt even him that done it.
[Edited by RadioRaheem on 07 May 10 12:08 AM]
 
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